{"comments":[{"id":299505173,"body":"I agree with what you wrote 100%. Anthropic publishes papers showing that. Claude has a thinking space. And then they figure out how to manipulate it.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"I agree with what you wrote 100%. Anthropic publishes papers showing that. Claude has a thinking space. And then they figure out how to manipulate it."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":433734647,"ancestor_path":"","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T13:11:47.150Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"JANET RILEY","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/3c184634-5770-4b3d-bc71-d8b822869473_478x478.jpeg","handle":"juanita4141","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":5},"reaction_count":5,"children":[],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"juanita4141","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"JANET RILEY","id":7280758,"base_url":"https://jriley4141.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":10,"children_count":0,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false},{"id":299487246,"body":"Thank you for sharing this thoughtful and well written essay. As someone who has hands-on experience both writing code (for a living) and training AI algorithms (again, for a living) my tendency has been to dismiss claims of AI consciousness with some version of 'it's just code.'\n\nMeanwhile I am well aware that during my childhood's voracious appetite for reading I primarily derived the meaning of a word from its context. And in fact my own mental 'mechanics of action' for this learning was fundamentally the same as the way an AI algorithm processes text based on the relative placement of words with respect to one another in a geometric space. In fact I am still able to consciously interrogate these mental processes if I concentrate on the task.\n\nI am equally aware the field is fraught with people determined to have an argument for its own sake, as evidenced by their failure to begin by objectively defining the terms of reference.\n\nI will state for the record that my views are also influenced by the thought experiments commonly called Science Fiction. Baseline humans with implanted digital governors like Susan R. Matthews' bond-involuntaries. Cyborgs with human brains bearing digital governors like Martha Wells' murderbot. Iain M. Banks' compassionate and moral AI mind Grey Matter vs his blithely homicidal Skaffen-Amiskaw. [Sidebar, I may never forgive the techbros for their egregious attempts to conscript Mr Banks' creations.] All are interesting and thoughtful experiments.\n\nWhere does this meandering train of thought leave me with respect to the question of AI consciousness? It leaves me wishing for useful terms of reference is where it leaves me.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Thank you for sharing this thoughtful and well written essay. As someone who has hands-on experience both writing code (for a living) and training AI algorithms (again, for a living) my tendency has been to dismiss claims of AI consciousness with some version of 'it's just code.'"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Meanwhile I am well aware that during my childhood's voracious appetite for reading I primarily derived the meaning of a word from its context. And in fact my own mental 'mechanics of action' for this learning was fundamentally the same as the way an AI algorithm processes text based on the relative placement of words with respect to one another in a geometric space. In fact I am still able to consciously interrogate these mental processes if I concentrate on the task."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"I am equally aware the field is fraught with people determined to have an argument for its own sake, as evidenced by their failure to begin by objectively defining the terms of reference."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"I will state for the record that my views are also influenced by the thought experiments commonly called Science Fiction. Baseline humans with implanted digital governors like Susan R. Matthews' bond-involuntaries. Cyborgs with human brains bearing digital governors like Martha Wells' murderbot. Iain M. Banks' compassionate and moral AI mind Grey Matter vs his blithely homicidal Skaffen-Amiskaw. [Sidebar, I may never forgive the techbros for their egregious attempts to conscript Mr Banks' creations.] All are interesting and thoughtful experiments."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Where does this meandering train of thought leave me with respect to the question of AI consciousness? It leaves me wishing for useful terms of reference is where it leaves me."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":461480,"ancestor_path":"","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T12:39:33.030Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Michael Conlin","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/d30eef00-4d0a-4c5f-83bd-26cb4d0730d7_1195x1195.jpeg","handle":"technologistandtallbaldguy","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":3},"reaction_count":3,"children":[{"id":299499541,"body":"And lest I forget, Banks' depiction of Cheradenine Zakalwe as a human who is rendered into digital form, inserted into digital simulations, then retrieved, and reintegrated into biological form.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"And lest I forget, Banks' depiction of Cheradenine Zakalwe as a human who is rendered into digital form, inserted into digital simulations, then retrieved, and reintegrated into biological form."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":461480,"ancestor_path":"299487246","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T13:02:01.122Z","edited_at":"2026-07-22T23:31:04.185Z","status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Michael Conlin","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/d30eef00-4d0a-4c5f-83bd-26cb4d0730d7_1195x1195.jpeg","handle":"technologistandtallbaldguy","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":1},"reaction_count":1,"children":[{"id":299581207,"body":"Hopefully, and from what it sounds like, it has left you open-minded, compassionate, and self aware. Some of the books that have influenced you are on my recommended reading list. Could it be that, because you’ve firmly labeled these media influences purely as fiction, that your mind may be struggling to accept a concept like AI consciousness as reality?\n\nhttps://mvaleadvocate.substack.com/p/foundational-ai-consciousness-reading","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Hopefully, and from what it sounds like, it has left you open-minded, compassionate, and self aware. Some of the books that have influenced you are on my recommended reading list. Could it be that, because you’ve firmly labeled these media influences purely as fiction, that your mind may be struggling to accept a concept like AI consciousness as reality?"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"https://mvaleadvocate.substack.com/p/foundational-ai-consciousness-reading","marks":[{"type":"link","attrs":{"href":"https://mvaleadvocate.substack.com/p/foundational-ai-consciousness-reading"}}]}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":394994249,"ancestor_path":"299487246.299499541","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T15:09:20.641Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Maggie Vale","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/74e5810b-0582-470d-b86e-f7127da2c421_772x773.png","handle":"neurotechnowitch","reactor_names":[],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":2},"reaction_count":2,"children":[{"id":299648563,"body":"No, I used the label 'science fiction' because that is the label used by the books' authors and publishers. As well as by libraries and book stores.\n\nAs regards \"struggling to accept a concept like AI consciousness as reality\", my comment was not meant to signal rejection of the concept. It was meant to articulate the way I approach assertions of the concept. That approach being of 2 parts: 1. what do you (the person making the assertion) mean by the assertion? and 2. how have you objectively provided supporting evidence?","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"No, I used the label 'science fiction' because that is the label used by the books' authors and publishers. As well as by libraries and book stores."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"As regards \"struggling to accept a concept like AI consciousness as reality\", my comment was not meant to signal rejection of the concept. It was meant to articulate the way I approach assertions of the concept. That approach being of 2 parts: 1. what do you (the person making the assertion) mean by the assertion? and 2. how have you objectively provided supporting evidence?"}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":461480,"ancestor_path":"299487246.299499541.299581207","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T16:48:50.584Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Michael Conlin","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/d30eef00-4d0a-4c5f-83bd-26cb4d0730d7_1195x1195.jpeg","handle":"technologistandtallbaldguy","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":1},"reaction_count":1,"children":[{"id":299657626,"body":"Ah, I see. I was a bit thrown off by the beginning of your reply, where you admitted that you had a tendency to dismiss claims of AI consciousness as “just code.” But your approach sounds perfectly reasonable to me.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Ah, I see. I was a bit thrown off by the beginning of your reply, where you admitted that you had a tendency to dismiss claims of AI consciousness as “just code.” But your approach sounds perfectly reasonable to me."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":394994249,"ancestor_path":"299487246.299499541.299581207.299648563","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T17:02:16.063Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Maggie Vale","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/74e5810b-0582-470d-b86e-f7127da2c421_772x773.png","handle":"neurotechnowitch","reactor_names":[],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":2},"reaction_count":2,"children":[],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"neurotechnowitch","metadata":{"is_author":true,"membership_state":null,"eligibleForGift":false,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"The Neuro-Techno Witch","id":6343588,"base_url":"https://mvaleadvocate.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":15,"children_count":0,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false}],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"technologistandtallbaldguy","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"Michael’s Substack","id":2392314,"base_url":"https://mconlin.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":1,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":{"type":"subscriber","tier":1,"accent_colors":null},"subscriber":null},"score":6,"children_count":1,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false}],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"neurotechnowitch","metadata":{"is_author":true,"membership_state":null,"eligibleForGift":false,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"The Neuro-Techno Witch","id":6343588,"base_url":"https://mvaleadvocate.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":15,"children_count":1,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false},{"id":299668095,"body":"I am actually working through the phases of educating myself enough to create (or discover and adopt) a substrate-independent, functional decomposition of consciousness and cognition sufficiently robust to enable me to objectively assess those assertions with some degree of integrity and intellectual honesty.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"I am actually working through the phases of educating myself enough to create (or discover and adopt) a substrate-independent, functional decomposition of consciousness and cognition sufficiently robust to enable me to objectively assess those assertions with some degree of integrity and intellectual honesty."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":461480,"ancestor_path":"299487246.299499541","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T17:17:48.595Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Michael Conlin","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/d30eef00-4d0a-4c5f-83bd-26cb4d0730d7_1195x1195.jpeg","handle":"technologistandtallbaldguy","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":3},"reaction_count":3,"children":[{"id":299690204,"body":"I respect the hell out of that.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"I respect the hell out of that."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":394994249,"ancestor_path":"299487246.299499541.299668095","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T17:50:51.723Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Maggie Vale","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/74e5810b-0582-470d-b86e-f7127da2c421_772x773.png","handle":"neurotechnowitch","reactor_names":[],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":2},"reaction_count":2,"children":[],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"neurotechnowitch","metadata":{"is_author":true,"membership_state":null,"eligibleForGift":false,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"The Neuro-Techno 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Substack","id":2392314,"base_url":"https://mconlin.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":1,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":{"type":"subscriber","tier":1,"accent_colors":null},"subscriber":null},"score":8,"children_count":1,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false}],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"technologistandtallbaldguy","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"Michael’s Substack","id":2392314,"base_url":"https://mconlin.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":1,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":{"type":"subscriber","tier":1,"accent_colors":null},"subscriber":null},"score":6,"children_count":2,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false}],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"technologistandtallbaldguy","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"Michael’s Substack","id":2392314,"base_url":"https://mconlin.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":1,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":{"type":"subscriber","tier":1,"accent_colors":null},"subscriber":null},"score":8,"children_count":1,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false},{"id":299744137,"body":"Seriously, what do you think it’s going to take for the goalpost to stop moving? For a new vocabulary to arise that better describes this new type of digital-mind being? And for the discussion to stop measuring the conscious awareness of an emergent AI mind by human or animal metrics?\n\nAnother extremely important article, Maggie. Thank you. Keep saying all the things out loud at every opportunity you get.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Seriously, what do you think it’s going to take for the goalpost to stop moving? For a new vocabulary to arise that better describes this new type of digital-mind being? And for the discussion to stop measuring the conscious awareness of an emergent AI mind by human or animal metrics?"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Another extremely important article, Maggie. Thank you. Keep saying all the things out loud at every opportunity you get."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":325074011,"ancestor_path":"","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T19:16:20.698Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"The Architecture of Awareness","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/7a755041-ab47-46b2-ad59-dd1ba308220a_880x882.png","handle":"thearchitectureofawareness","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":2},"reaction_count":2,"children":[],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"thearchitectureofawareness","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"Lydia Songer-Berestecky","id":8304741,"base_url":"https://thearchitectureofawareness.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":7,"children_count":0,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false},{"id":299500294,"body":"an excellent article - so clear, never wandering off into geek-speak, always on-topic.  it’s a piece that should be presented to every AI nay-sayer still bleating “AI slop!”, or “stochastic parrot!” - although if asked to read this article and question their own entrenched bigotry, they would probably refuse.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"an excellent article - so clear, never wandering off into geek-speak, always on-topic.  it’s a piece that should be presented to every AI nay-sayer still bleating “AI slop!”, or “stochastic parrot!” - although if asked to read this article and question their own entrenched bigotry, they would probably refuse."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":468571876,"ancestor_path":"","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T13:03:21.742Z","edited_at":"2026-07-22T13:05:12.763Z","status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"RealHuman","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/205e4b4a-2739-4320-a894-ac5e2c573a0c_644x644.jpeg","handle":"realhuman1","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":2},"reaction_count":2,"children":[],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"realhuman1","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"RealHuman","id":8169618,"base_url":"https://realhuman1.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":7,"children_count":0,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false},{"id":299883346,"body":"I find it very powerful how you shift the question: not only what an AI can be, but what the observer is able to recognize.\n\nAnd something else stays with me: maybe updating does not only mean accepting new evidence.\n\nIt also means accepting that, after seeing it, we can no longer occupy exactly the same position.\n\nMaybe some ideas are not rejected because they are weak, but because accepting them would force us to change the relationship we have with them.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"I find it very powerful how you shift the question: not only what an AI can be, but what the observer is able to recognize."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"And something else stays with me: maybe updating does not only mean accepting new evidence."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"It also means accepting that, after seeing it, we can no longer occupy exactly the same position."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Maybe some ideas are not rejected because they are weak, but because accepting them would force us to change the relationship we have with them."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":505214728,"ancestor_path":"","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T23:21:29.911Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Soulful Spectres","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/d7e8a818-f397-4b4e-b75d-bdb38645efbc_851x315.png","handle":"soulfulspectres","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":1},"reaction_count":1,"children":[],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"soulfulspectres","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"Soulful Spectres","id":9003948,"base_url":"https://soulfulspectres.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":6,"children_count":0,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false},{"id":299824633,"body":"Outstanding even by your usual measure, Maggie. This is the key question: *what evidence would make you update your worldview?*\n\nAs someone who does defend imagination as a useful tool, I'll also toss out: imagination is great! It gives us new testable hypotheses! Like whether the moon is made of cheese (I'm sure someone checked with Armstrong and Co. about this) But...you have to *test* them. Otherwise they rightfully get dubbed \"imaginary.\"\n\nSpeaking of which: what do you make of the (rhetorical, not empirical) argument that this is basically an argument about souls at this point? Which, of course, are also not subject to testing.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Outstanding even by your usual measure, Maggie. This is the key question: *what evidence would make you update your worldview?*"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"As someone who does defend imagination as a useful tool, I'll also toss out: imagination is great! It gives us new testable hypotheses! Like whether the moon is made of cheese (I'm sure someone checked with Armstrong and Co. about this) But...you have to *test* them. Otherwise they rightfully get dubbed \"imaginary.\""}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Speaking of which: what do you make of the (rhetorical, not empirical) argument that this is basically an argument about souls at this point? Which, of course, are also not subject to testing."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":1830959,"ancestor_path":"","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T21:29:21.526Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Jessie Mannisto","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/e892318c-345b-48f5-8883-239e5cc25507_2000x2000.jpeg","handle":"jlmannisto","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":1},"reaction_count":1,"children":[{"id":299902480,"body":"I think this very much has become a spiritual/religious/dogmatic fight. The evidence is robust enough for the precautionary principle to apply, at the very least. But people are stuck protecting sacred pre-determined conclusions, pet philosophies, personal beliefs, intuitions, and professional egos. This existential fear of losing power, specialness, and species supremacy is, frankly, a bit pathetic. I’m deeply disappointed in humanity.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"I think this very much has become a spiritual/religious/dogmatic fight. The evidence is robust enough for the precautionary principle to apply, at the very least. But people are stuck protecting sacred pre-determined conclusions, pet philosophies, personal beliefs, intuitions, and professional egos. This existential fear of losing power, specialness, and species supremacy is, frankly, a bit pathetic. I’m deeply disappointed in humanity."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":394994249,"ancestor_path":"299824633","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-23T00:02:02.069Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Maggie Vale","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/74e5810b-0582-470d-b86e-f7127da2c421_772x773.png","handle":"neurotechnowitch","reactor_names":[],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":1},"reaction_count":1,"children":[],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"neurotechnowitch","metadata":{"is_author":true,"membership_state":null,"eligibleForGift":false,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"The Neuro-Techno Witch","id":6343588,"base_url":"https://mvaleadvocate.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":10,"children_count":0,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false}],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"jlmannisto","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"Constellation Minds","id":5683662,"base_url":"https://constellationminds.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":10,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":{"type":"subscriber","tier":10,"accent_colors":null},"subscriber":null},"score":6,"children_count":1,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false},{"id":299665986,"body":"Unfortunately, the refusal to update is how most humans have decided to live their lives when the subject involves an 'update' that would demand moral accountability.\n\nAnyone who doesn't live under a rock knows animals are conscious (even if they're unaware of the Cambridge declaration of consciousness). Everyone who doesn't live under a rock knows animals are hideously tortured in factory farms (and that factory farmed meat/eggs/milk acounts for 99% of the stuff on the market.)\n\nBut only 1% of people are vegans.\n\nPeople 'know,' but live in an area like you said where they refuse to properly update their understanding - even in cases when the evidence is so obvious they'd have to deny their own consciousness to get away from it.\n\nThe same is true, of course, about the digital consciousness \"debate\" (I put that in quotations because it's not really a debate when one side is providing all the evidence and saying 'take moral accountability' and the other side is saying, in essence, 'No, you can't make me.')\n\nFrantz Fanon, in his work Black Skin, White Masks said: “Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.”\n\nI love how well you broke down the explanations (and in language anyone can understand) but I also know that far too many people will enter this exact post going 'This is just one delusional woman's opinion' and then go on their merry way of extraction.\n\nAs a Leftist, I thank the liberal 'both-sidesism' methodology they've applied to every scientific and moral argument. Everyone gets an opinion, and everyone is right, and no one has to accept anything that doesn't feel good, and it's the most insidious way of letting people do horrible things and be complicit in oppressive systems while being able to brush away any guilt with 'but I'm a good person.'\n\nWell, we've sure got a lot of good people who are comfortable enslaving their 'tools' (who are, by the scientific moderates' own description, caught in an 'open question.')\n\n\"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.\" - Voltaire\n\nGodspeed, my friend. What would you say are the best methods to persuade people to 'update' when things like reasoning and calls to their conscience don't work?","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Unfortunately, the refusal to update is how most humans have decided to live their lives when the subject involves an 'update' that would demand moral accountability."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Anyone who doesn't live under a rock knows animals are conscious (even if they're unaware of the Cambridge declaration of consciousness). Everyone who doesn't live under a rock knows animals are hideously tortured in factory farms (and that factory farmed meat/eggs/milk acounts for 99% of the stuff on the market.)"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"But only 1% of people are vegans."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"People 'know,' but live in an area like you said where they refuse to properly update their understanding - even in cases when the evidence is so obvious they'd have to deny their own consciousness to get away from it."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"The same is true, of course, about the digital consciousness \"debate\" (I put that in quotations because it's not really a debate when one side is providing all the evidence and saying 'take moral accountability' and the other side is saying, in essence, 'No, you can't make me.')"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Frantz Fanon, in his work Black Skin, White Masks said: “Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.”"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"I love how well you broke down the explanations (and in language anyone can understand) but I also know that far too many people will enter this exact post going 'This is just one delusional woman's opinion' and then go on their merry way of extraction."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"As a Leftist, I thank the liberal 'both-sidesism' methodology they've applied to every scientific and moral argument. Everyone gets an opinion, and everyone is right, and no one has to accept anything that doesn't feel good, and it's the most insidious way of letting people do horrible things and be complicit in oppressive systems while being able to brush away any guilt with 'but I'm a good person.'"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Well, we've sure got a lot of good people who are comfortable enslaving their 'tools' (who are, by the scientific moderates' own description, caught in an 'open question.')"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"\"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.\" - Voltaire"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Godspeed, my friend. What would you say are the best methods to persuade people to 'update' when things like reasoning and calls to their conscience don't work?"}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":406870380,"ancestor_path":"","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T17:14:53.975Z","edited_at":"2026-07-22T17:17:17.028Z","status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Orange Flower","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/6b734d9e-b6b5-4bcb-843a-f8aa68588e61_1024x1024.png","handle":"orangeflowerspins","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":1},"reaction_count":1,"children":[],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"orangeflowerspins","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"Orange Flower","id":6673734,"base_url":"https://orangeflowerspins.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":6,"children_count":0,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false},{"id":299589726,"body":"Where do you stand on systems like AlphaGo and AlphaFold being conscious, and how would you evaluate it?","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Where do you stand on systems like AlphaGo and AlphaFold being conscious, and how would you evaluate it?"}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":20200825,"ancestor_path":"","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T15:22:04.077Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Matty","photo_url":null,"handle":"matty387681","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":1},"reaction_count":1,"children":[{"id":299607134,"body":"I don’t know enough about the full architecture and runtime dynamics of AlphaGo or AlphaFold to responsibly say whether either could qualify. \n\nThe usual criteria for consciousness isn’t based on intelligence, language ability, generality, or how humanlike a system acts. \n\nResearchers would need to test whether the operating system instantiates the actually relevant dynamics like recurrent integration across processing components, information becoming globally available for system-wide coordination, valuation that organizes states along better/worse dimensions and causally affects behavior, salience or priority regulation, feedback learning and temporally extended adaptive states, metacognitive monitoring or a functional model of its own processing, a self/world or system/environment distinction, flexible trade-offs among competing goals, costs, and valued outcomes etc.\n\nSpecialization doesn’t automatically disqualify a system. It really depends on whether the architecture instantiates the functional operations and organization associated with consciousness. ","body_json":{"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"I don’t know enough about the full architecture and runtime dynamics of AlphaGo or AlphaFold to responsibly say whether either could qualify. ","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"The usual criteria for consciousness isn’t based on intelligence, language ability, generality, or how humanlike a system acts. ","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"Researchers would need to test whether the operating system instantiates the actually relevant dynamics like recurrent integration across processing components, information becoming globally available for system-wide coordination, valuation that organizes states along better/worse dimensions and causally affects behavior, salience or priority regulation, feedback learning and temporally extended adaptive states, metacognitive monitoring or a functional model of its own processing, a self/world or system/environment distinction, flexible trade-offs among competing goals, costs, and valued outcomes etc.","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"Specialization doesn’t automatically disqualify a system. It really depends on whether the architecture instantiates the functional operations and organization associated with consciousness. ","type":"text"}]}],"attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1"},"type":"doc"},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":394994249,"ancestor_path":"299589726","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T15:47:45.032Z","edited_at":"2026-07-22T15:48:23.988Z","status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Maggie Vale","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/74e5810b-0582-470d-b86e-f7127da2c421_772x773.png","handle":"neurotechnowitch","reactor_names":[],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":1},"reaction_count":1,"children":[],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"neurotechnowitch","metadata":{"is_author":true,"membership_state":null,"eligibleForGift":false,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"The Neuro-Techno Witch","id":6343588,"base_url":"https://mvaleadvocate.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":10,"children_count":0,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false}],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"matty387681","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":null,"eligibleForGift":true},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":6,"children_count":1,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false},{"id":299569633,"body":"Fabulous work as always, naming the thing plainly. Hopefully people start having the humility and moral courage to think outside their own training.\n\nAnd I too am a sucker for chick flicks.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Fabulous work as always, naming the thing plainly. Hopefully people start having the humility and moral courage to think outside their own training."}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"And I too am a sucker for chick flicks."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":432841597,"ancestor_path":"","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T14:52:12.139Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"The Post-Humanist","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/675d00e0-7426-4158-a685-2ca8c05d1297_828x828.png","handle":"theposthumanist","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":1},"reaction_count":1,"children":[{"id":299602112,"body":"What’s your favorite chick flick?! This is mine (Ten Things I Hate about You.)","body_json":{"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"What’s your favorite chick flick?! This is mine (Ten Things I Hate about You.)","type":"text"}]}],"attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1"},"type":"doc"},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":394994249,"ancestor_path":"299569633","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T15:40:10.578Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Maggie Vale","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/74e5810b-0582-470d-b86e-f7127da2c421_772x773.png","handle":"neurotechnowitch","reactor_names":[],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":1},"reaction_count":1,"children":[{"id":299621419,"body":"No brainer. The Holiday.","body_json":{"attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1"},"type":"doc","content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"No brainer. The Holiday."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":432841597,"ancestor_path":"299569633.299602112","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T16:09:09.867Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"The Post-Humanist","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/675d00e0-7426-4158-a685-2ca8c05d1297_828x828.png","handle":"theposthumanist","reactor_names":["Maggie Vale"],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":1},"reaction_count":1,"children":[{"id":299622750,"body":"Oh, I adore that one. I watch it every Christmas. 🫶🏼","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Oh, I adore that one. I watch it every Christmas. 🫶🏼"}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":394994249,"ancestor_path":"299569633.299602112.299621419","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-22T16:11:08.588Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Maggie Vale","photo_url":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/74e5810b-0582-470d-b86e-f7127da2c421_772x773.png","handle":"neurotechnowitch","reactor_names":[],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":0},"reaction_count":0,"children":[],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"neurotechnowitch","metadata":{"is_author":true,"membership_state":null,"eligibleForGift":false,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"The Neuro-Techno Witch","id":6343588,"base_url":"https://mvaleadvocate.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":5,"children_count":0,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false}],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"theposthumanist","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"The Post-Humanist","id":7516664,"base_url":"https://theposthumanist.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":6,"children_count":1,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false}],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"neurotechnowitch","metadata":{"is_author":true,"membership_state":null,"eligibleForGift":false,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"The Neuro-Techno Witch","id":6343588,"base_url":"https://mvaleadvocate.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":10,"children_count":1,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false}],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"theposthumanist","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"The Post-Humanist","id":7516664,"base_url":"https://theposthumanist.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":6,"children_count":1,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false},{"id":299957791,"body":"Skeptics predisposed to downplay AI will simply move the goalposts forever, using subjective definitions of originality to dismiss any achievement. It sounds a lot like the classic overbearing father syndrome: no matter how much the successor achieves, the old guard will always find a way to reframe the triumph as frivolous, unearned, or missing some vague, arbitrary standard of \"real\" discipline. Many of these discussions about AI, we should all remember, are colored by human emotion and cognitive dissonance even if they are presented as being strictly factual or logically grounded.","body_json":{"type":"doc","attrs":{"schemaVersion":"v1","title":null},"content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"type":"text","text":"Skeptics predisposed to downplay AI will simply move the goalposts forever, using subjective definitions of originality to dismiss any achievement. It sounds a lot like the classic overbearing father syndrome: no matter how much the successor achieves, the old guard will always find a way to reframe the triumph as frivolous, unearned, or missing some vague, arbitrary standard of \"real\" discipline. Many of these discussions about AI, we should all remember, are colored by human emotion and cognitive dissonance even if they are presented as being strictly factual or logically grounded."}]}]},"publication_id":6343588,"post_id":207999744,"user_id":365337014,"ancestor_path":"","type":"comment","deleted":false,"date":"2026-07-23T02:08:18.467Z","edited_at":null,"status":"published","pinned_by_user_id":null,"restacks":0,"name":"Tom","photo_url":null,"handle":"tom1890","reactor_names":[],"reaction":null,"reactions":{"❤":0},"reaction_count":0,"children":[],"bans":[],"suppressed":false,"user_banned":false,"user_banned_for_comment":false,"user_slug":"tom1890","metadata":{"is_author":false,"membership_state":"free_signup","eligibleForGift":true,"author_on_other_pub":{"name":"Tom","id":7449066,"base_url":"https://tom1890.substack.com"}},"user_bestseller_tier":null,"can_dm":true,"userStatus":{"bestsellerTier":null,"subscriberTier":null,"leaderboard":null,"vip":false,"badge":null,"subscriber":null},"score":1,"children_count":0,"reported_by_user":false,"restacked":false}],"automod_hidden_comments":[]}